Monday, 25 February 2013

Cavalier 2013 - Bring and Buy Rant!


As you may be aware some of the Rejects went along to Cavalier Wargame show in Tonbridge on Sunday, I was going to post some pics of the games at the show today, but that'll have to wait, I need to get these three words off my chest first.
BRING AND BUY!!

Once again as some of you know myself and fellow Reject, Postie, have been painting up figures to sell for our little adventure otherwise known as Battleaxe Painting Service. We've sold various figures on ebay, but thought we'd try our luck at a bring and buy.
Now if your a regular at UK shows, you'll have noticed that the bring and buys have been getting worse and worse each year, we've always put it down to the internet and eBay  Why bother to take your figures to a bring and buy when you can flog them on ebay???
We took 10 units to sell and only sold 4, I've got to admit I thought, ok hoped?,  they'd all sell obviously, perhaps we overpriced them, I don't think so though, more like under priced them, perhaps people just don't have the money to spend on painted figures?
But on Sunday we found the main reason why bring and buys are full of other gamers crap, with hardly a decent figure or bargain in sight.


Thieving Fecking Bastards!

Me!

Just before  the end of the show, me and Postie, happily went to collect our dosh and figures that didn't sell and found out that some shitbag had stolen one of our units. The unit in question were a 25mm Napoleonic unit, the 5th/60th Royal American Rifles, sorry no pics!! There were 12 figures, up for a very reasonable £40, but quite obviously £40 was far too much for the $£^&!* who stole them.
I do hope he's very happy with them. I would very much like to meet this fine fellow and shake his hand!!

I was also quite miffed with the chap on the bring and buy, who wouldn't even look me in the eye and kept his head down, I know it wasn't his fault what had happened, but when he asked me to sign the bottom of the form if I was happy with the sale, I had to stop myself from screwing the form up and stuffing it somewhere!!!!! There was no apology, just a " Well if they turn up, we've got your mobile number" Yeh right!!!!!
No wonder there was a "TWWS accepts no liability for loss or damage of items" clause on the form, they'd probably end up owing more than they made.  
Fran said he'd seen one other poor sap running up and down the bring and buy looking for his missing item, just before me and Postie came in,  I just wonder how much other stuff went missing during the day and at other wargames shows?
Well it was a hard lesson to learn, but I'll never again try and sell anything else at a bring and buy again!!


105 comments:

  1. What a bummer - I understand your need to let of steam. There are some absolute toe rags out there.

    This is one of the reasons why at Carronade we have a fleamarket where people sell their own stuff - it makes this sort of thing much less likely to happen

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    1. I never understood and always disliked the idea of the fleamarket idea....not anymore!

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    2. Blody hell Ray, terrible! This is one of the reasons we decided on the Flea Market idea for Broadside, especially following emails with other clubs such as the Carronade chaps. I knew a guy that had a 25mm ECW army in two boxes....one was nicked and the other damaged..all the pikes broken off, figures off the basses etc. The staff put another box (of books no less) on top of it! Flea markets are the way forward. Could you not sell your great items via your own blog and paypal account too? just a thought.

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    3. Ray you also have my sympathies and I understand your need to let off steam. However as a member of TWWS I can also understand the current stance think you are aiming some of your frustration it at the wrong target. Whilst I can only express my own opinions, rather than those of the club, any theft at our show is a serious consern. As far as I am aware this is also an issue across a number of other shows around the country. I am aware that as a club we have given serious consideration to withdrawing the Bring and Buy stall due to this problem even though it is still very popular. We work very hard to put on a good show and it is very frustrating that one or two unscrupulous individuals are trying to undermine our efforts. Having seen the 'scrum' that develops at the bring and buy stall you will appreciate that with the best will in the world we can't keep an eye on everything all of the time. Rest assured if we ever catch any of the culprits they will be dealt appropriately.

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    4. @ Anon - I can totally understand what your saying, perhaps it is time for the bring and buy to go and to move on to a different type of customer sale like other shows do now?

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    5. I am sure that this is under consideration but I will raise it with the commitee to make sure.

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  2. Bastard, but not surprised, no wonder people sell stuff on ebay despite the rip off charges and soaring postal charges (sorry Postie)

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  3. Having worked on the SELWG bring and buy on several occasions I know this thing can happen. I've had to tell people that their stuff had gone missing but, if I remember correctly, the club always paid for missing items so the seller didn't lose out. These places are always carnage though and anything over £20 isn't likely to sell well as people are looking for real bargains here. If you want to make the cash I'd stick with ebay – a much larger audience and, fees aside, a better and safer way of doing things.

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    1. Your right, I'm gonna be sticking with Ebay!

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  4. That's shit Ray, sorry to hear that. I was planning on doing the same thing at Falkirk this year however they do it different. You book a table for an hour and sell yourself.
    Cheers
    Paul

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  5. Sorry to hear that Ray. Cavalier introduced the clause a few years back if I remember rightly due to thefts and had to reimburse over £200. (it has a reputation for Osprey books going missing in particular). This might be local wargames folklore of course, but that is what I was told. At Broadside we will also run the flea market approach mostly because we just don't have the staff to run a bring and buy.

    Once more I am sorry that something was stolen as it marred an otherwise good day out.

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    1. Thanks for the fudge Clint, it was very nice!

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  6. lucky bugger if you'd caught him he would be in trouble. I would very much like to have been there to help you though being on the other side of the world is a bit of a hindrance... though if your looking to hire some muscle to keep your stall safe I am not the person to look for but if you want someone who can run them down then possibly I can help.

    flee market now that's a good idea.

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    1. I'd really love to have a chat with the bugger!

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  7. Sorry to read that Ray!
    Phil.

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  8. Sorry to hear about that. Keep an eye out on Ebay for them as the chances are that that's where they'll turn up, then track down the ****ard.

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    1. I've been watching ebay all day, I don't think the idiot is going to be that stupid....but you never know??

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  9. That's really really bad! Once in a while you hear these kinda stories and I have to remind myself we're talking about toy-soldiers not high tech cellphones or something... what is this world coming to?

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  10. Thieving bastards! I hope that unit jinxes every fecking game he uses them in... Makes my piss boil Ray.

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    1. Postie was quite calm, me on the other hand.......

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  11. Sorry to hear about that... I vaguely remember a time when that didn't happen, but I'm led to believe that traders also regularly suffer losses at shows due to theft too now.

    At least there is the consolation that they were worth nicking, as opposed to the worthless tat that was left behind.

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  12. That sucks major indeed.. but a good lesson for the rest on why not to trust it I guess.. Hopefully karma gives it to him ( or her ) for this little stunt..

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  13. Sorry this happened to you both Ray. I had a similar experiance with a bring and buy 5 or six years ago and now only use Ebay as my sales method.

    If you have pics at all it would be good to post them as honest gamers may be able to find the tea leaf

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    1. Unfortunately they were only finished by Postie the day before the show, so I didn't get a chance to take any photo's, we did actually paint two units of the 60th, and luckily decided to take only one regt.

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  14. That really sucks Ray, Dishonest B'S !

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  15. There are unfortunately some sad gits out there even in our little hobby.

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  16. It's also possible that the organisers failed to log the ticket if it was really busy, contact them and ask if they had cashed up and found to be over.

    It would be great if one of the wargame rags kept a record of what was stolen at shows to see if it's regional etc. also post pictures of the stolen stuff, would cut down on the nicking and also give the chance for those who DID buy the gear to come forward and so find the more disorganised or down right thieving B&B stalls.

    It's the main reason for the book a table aproach

    Ian

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    1. Like I said earlier, I never liked the book a table approach, but I can really understand why they are replacing the old B+B system.

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  17. That's rotten. I suppose that that is another of the effects of eBay. It's worth stealing stuff so you can sell it on. Tamsin may be right.

    I've never bought or sold anything at a bring and buy; mainly because I don't buy painted figures which, is what they mainly seem to consist of, but they all seem such a disorganised scrum I'm sort of not surprised.

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  18. That's a bummer for sure. The problem with most Bring & Buys is that its a total scrum, often three people deep and it must be nigh on impossible for the 'staff' manning the stall to keep an eye on everything. I've sold at B&B's several times without a problem but I can easily see how a well painted unit would be a tempting target. Your probably better off sticking to eBay mate, at least you have a bit more control there.

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  19. sorry to hear this mate. I don't usually bother with B&B anymore - in fact I can't recall when I last looked. I would stick with ebay for your figures.

    Best of luck

    Tony

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  20. So sad that shits have to ruin a good day. I never have thought that thiefs happen at a show which is a hobbie. They are lower then a worms tit

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  21. Ray - just commented on Fran's site. I'd be annoyed beyond human comprehension.

    My solution would be to put the security and pay point at a choke point (i.e. a narrow entrance that people have to walk through to get into and out of the bring and buy). That way its a lot harder to try and sneak something out without paying. Or just let 20 people in at a time (based on your entrance ticket number). Easier to track and watch!

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  22. That sucks the big one Ray! I know it's a long shot but I do hope you find the bastard!

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  23. Bad news Ray - lost stuff myself and not just on B&B's Had stuff was stolen from a Trader stand who was doing me a favour.
    Just as an aside Cavalier's "at your own risk" doesn't stack up legally. If you've paid them a "booking fee" or similiar. It's a bit like those signs you see at car-parks they mean nowt!
    They have a duty of care whilst selling anyone's stuff. It would be useful if you knew if others had had stuff knicked. Did they offer to contact you if they found they'd got more money in at the end of the day i.e. they'd not booked stuff properly.
    Have they had problems in the past? (Obviously Yes) steps What have they taken to avoid thefts as a result?
    Send them a letter - nice at first - then threaten 'em with the small claims court - if you can find out who is responsible for the B&B and go after them personally.
    Sounds stroppy but why should You loose out because they have a get lost we don't care attitude.
    Go get 'em!

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    1. Its such a shame that you do actual have to think along these lines about a £40 box of soldiers. I'd much prefer to meet this light fingered so called wargamer, for just a couple of minutes.

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  24. Some bastards have no conscience! I hope it turns up someday for you. Like you said next time do a flea market or just stay with e-bay.

    Christopher

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    1. Unfortunately, that seems to be the only answer Chris.

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  25. Hi Ray,

    I am really sorry and saddened that someone would stoop so low!

    I hope that the items turn up again and that the toe rag that did this gets a suitable comeuppance.

    It was great to catch up with you all though,

    All the best,

    DC

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  26. That's a bit shit Ray, hope it didn't ruin your day too much.

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    1. It spoilt Fran's, he didn't get his suspected McDonalds??

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  27. I' m sorry for your miniatures...I hate f@#**** thieves...

    Many years ago someone stole more or less 200 15mm Napoleonics from a wargame table, all of a friend of mine, at a convention in Genoa...

    Again Bring&Buy events have lost interest :-(

    Marzio.

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  28. Arse's Ray, what a spoiler mate.

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  29. Sorry to hear about the loss of the minis, defenetly ruins a good day.

    Best regards Michael

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  30. f%£$!"&^*

    Really sorry about that Ray.

    I'll keep an eye on ebay, just in case.

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  31. That sucks. I hope the bastard(s) get caught.

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  32. May the thief fall on those miniatures and get a punctured wound from the pointy heads that develops into lead poisoning.

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  33. Swines... that is a real shit trick to pull...rant away

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  34. Not sure I like Jonathon's approach - why get heavy with the club. Yes, duty of care and all that, but some rat's arse stole your goods, not the club. B&Bs are free for alls that maybe in this day and age of theft have outlived their usefulness. But I would hate to see the club get caught up in nastiness when they are trying to run a show that will be good for more than 99% of attendees. Not sure how to solve the problem of the thieving sods though. Ebay probably. And that would leave more room for games at Cavalier which it desperately needs.

    But if you can put some info up on TMP etc with pics that would help - maybe someone will spot them and grass up the thief.

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    1. I do understand the smash and grab nightmare at the bring and buys and just how easy it is for some toe-rag to pinch anything they want. Unfortunately like you said, there is no answer to this problem, its going to carry on and others will still end up out of pocket. As the unit was only finished off the day before the show we didn't get time to take any photos of them, but we did paint up a second regt of the same unit, that I will end up taking photo's of and posting them up on both my blogs. I doubt though the thief will be stupid enough to try and sell them on ebay, but you never know???

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    2. I take your point Marc but if the club had done the right thing and given Ray his £34 you wouldn't have to get "nasty". But it seems the attitude is tough luck it ain't our fault.
      If clubs were made to pay out then they might do something more about this rather than just introducing a we don't pay out for less than a £200 loss. This is not trying to stop the thefts by any stretch of the imagination.
      In fact just a few basic precautions might help; Receipts; Restricting the number of people looking at any one time; putting some people on the other side of the B&B (the punters side); Put a camera or two up - even if it's a dummy one - they're not exactly expensive - and tell the punters they're being filmed.

      it won't stop it but it'll help and you might actually catch the bastards.....

      BTW sadly eBays not entirely safe safe either ;-(

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  35. Those places are great to sell, but also high on theft if people see an opening. Idiots like that are the reason why good things get screwed up.

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  36. That theft is an awful end to what seemed like a good show. Hope someone grasses the sods up.

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  37. Crappy end to the day, Ray. Sorry to hear about it.

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  38. That's such a shame people have to resort to theft and ruin it for everyone. Sorry you lost your figure, Ray.

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  39. Hey Ray,

    my apologies for the B&B incident. What a damn bastard!
    I hope he'll stab his finger at some bayonet or sharpe adge or whatever every time he graps his condemnable loot!

    Good luck maybe somehow you'll find this guy!
    Stefan

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  40. You really do have a good right to rant about the inadequacies of the B&B and the small claims court is just for this sort of thing too but may well not be worth the hassle.

    To misquote another occurrence
    "Aside from that Mrs. Lincoln, how did you find the show?"

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    1. No, I won't bothering with the small claims court, not for £40 worth of figures. Apart from the incident it was a great show as Cavalier usually is each year.

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  41. What a filthy bastard. I don't always have the money to suppress my addiction but stealing. NEVER! I hope he will caught 1 day.

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  42. What horrid bugger would do such a thing? Gamers are supposed to be a cut above and this is just not right. It's a small world and like Tamisin said, they'll likely show up on Ebay, then you can cream them.

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  43. Ray, really sorry to read of this experience, as a painter myself I know just how much time and work goes into anything offered up for sale. I used to attend Cavalier for years in the Gush/McLeod days and it was always such a nice friendly 'local' show, I'm shocked to read of something like this happening.

    On the wider issue of where us painters sell our goods to the best (price) advantage it's difficult, on a good day eBay can be great and a unit can 'fly' but there is always the risk that it may be snapped up as a bargain and you make a serious loss in terms of time invested. We need a dedicated platform to display our wares without the ridiculous charges made by eBay.

    I feel for you Ray,

    All the best,
    Lee.

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    1. Ebay fees do seem to be getting a little ridiculous, I do advertise my wares on TMP and on the Battle =axe blog, but most of my readers are painters themselves, so a new kind of selling forum would be a great idea. Any takers????

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  44. Sorry to hear that, Ray. It's a damn shame but a sad fact that even in a 'friendly' crowd there's often someone who'll take advantage if they think they can get away with it.

    Reminds me of a stack of my CDs that got flogged at a mate's 21st do many years ago...

    Anyway, if you ever do meet the fine fellow and he's still standing after the first handshake, give him another one from me!

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  45. Sorry to hear it - can not understand the sort of bastard that would do such a thing!

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  46. Man, that really sucks about the bring and buy. I'd be mad as hell.

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  47. Bummer, Ray. Particularly about the Rifles unit disappearing. Not cool at all. Hopefully it may turn up and the be returned. Best, Dean

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  48. That is complete and utter bullshit, sorry to hear it man. I didn't realize that you weren't actually sitting there hawking your wares, I guess you have to purchase a booth for that. 40 (hmm what is the ascii code for Pound)is not a lot for a high quality unit based and painted. I definitely would not bring my stuff there again. And a wargamer who would do that to a fellow wargamer should be flogged.

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    1. £40 was a very cheap price for them, we put them up at that hoping to attract future commissions, but instead we attracted some other kind attention!!!

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  49. Blimey 53 comments!!!! Thanks everyone. I'm going to try and answer some of you now!

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  50. A thoroughly deserved rant Ray, an appalling thing to happen to anyone - but too upset for a McDonalds!!!

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  51. I know exactly how you feel, Ray. Sorry it happened to you and Postie. If the git is a reader of TMP, or uses Ebay to sell, he will find it difficult to sell the figures off publicly, and if we're lucky, his mates will rat him out when they see them first placed on a table against them.

    Avoid the B&B, the only person I trust to watch my stuff is me, and if I screw up, only I get the blame.

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  52. I was another unfortunate client at the cavalier bring and buy.

    Out of 30 books (mostly Ospreys) I had on the bring and buy, 9 were
    unaccounted for at the end of the day. It seems pretty strange that someone
    could just walk off with such a big pile of books, or that there were multiple
    thieves.

    I resisted the temptation to get in an argument with the organizers who seemed
    indifferent, but the experience left me with a nasty taste in the month. I
    obviously won't be using this B&B in future.

    The sad thing is the traders also lost out, because I would normally
    spend my all B&B proceeds.

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    1. Sorry to here about your loss, and your right, because of some arsehole, both traders and the club have missed out on trade and profit.

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  53. BnB thieves are the worst of the worst. Usually, I've found wargamers to be very agreeable and friendly, but I suppose there must be exceptions. As far as selling at the wargame show, there was a show that used to be put on in Southbend, In. Everything up for sell was behind a glass case, when brought out for auction it was placed in the buyer's hand immediately upon the exchange of funds. Still, I'm all for hunting the theiving varmant down and thumping his eyeball.

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    1. Thumping his eyeball sounds good!! he he!

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  54. There are arseholes in every walk of life and we're looking through rose coloured glasses if we think wargamers are any different. Stuff 'goes missing' from many shows and from traders too, not just the B&B. The last time I ever used a B&B was at a Northern Militaire about 30 years ago when I 'lost' some stuff mainly due to understaffing - it was more like loot'n'scoot than bring'n'buy. Following a frank and fair exchange of views I got my money, but, on balance, I think I'd have preferred a couple of minutes alone with the git who lifted the stuff.

    I know quite a few people who love the B&B and regularly pick up bargains (legitimately), but I think there's a danger of them dying off as there are so many potential problems. At least you now know what not to do eh?

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    1. I do love the B&B myself, I can't remember buying anything from one for quite a while now though, but I think your right they are in danger of dying out. A hard lesson for us all, me thinks???

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  55. I do not like thieves. Sorry about the loss, Ray.

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  56. Yeah, you deserve a good vent. I would have peppered mine with way more f-bombs, but that's me. Some people suck. I'm really sorry. It just takes one or two idiots to ruin it all. Have a bacon sandwich. It will help.

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  57. That's pretty crap Ray. I've never had it happen to me, but I've heard of it at some bring and buys. Unfortunately the guys generally can't be everywhere, and in the press of people trying to get bargains, all it takes is one guy to quickly slip in.

    I must admit, I truly despise people who steal from other hobbyists. I hope one day you get to find the guy.

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  58. So sorry to hear this. And what the hell, did the guy stuff them in his drawers? Wasn't anyone looking at all? A thief like that has no fear and no shame.

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  59. Really sad to hear this Ray. I always hoped that in our hobby, no one would steal from other like-minded souls seeing as we share the same passion. I first encountered a theft when I was serving on a trade stand at Salute in 2003. When we were packing away the owner suddenly exclaimed 'Where are all the figures in that box from the table?' I couldn't answer as I had no idea - certainly I didn't sell them. In the back of my mind I HOPED he had sold them and that he just forgot about putting the takings away...I found the thought of people stealing from fellow gamers sickening. Today on reading of your experiences I find myself feeling quite sad about it again.

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    1. It is a shame, but in all walks of life theirs always someone who spoils the fun for everyone else.

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  60. Owch! I'm real sorry, I know what it's like to have your merch stolen and it feels like hard work down the drain. Lessons learned though!

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  61. I feel for you Ray!

    I had something similar happen to me at a show a couple of years ago (although I had a happy end the next day), so I can feel your pain. And I can only imagine how this must be twice as bad with the redundancy! I keep my fingers crossed, that whoever stole them develops a conscience and drops a letter with a bunch of tenners into your mailbox!

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    1. That would be nice, can't see it happening though??

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  62. I am so sorry that happened to you, Ray and I truly hope whoever did it feels like total crap and decides to do the right thing and turn it back in. One can only hope.

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  63. Geez mate I am sorry to hear about the lost of your figures, little bastards indeed I think thieving little toerags is closer

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